There was an entire war fought with Nazis over their ideas in which an estimated 15-20 million people died and resulted in the military and political defeat of Nazis and their ideas. One would think that should be enough for the head of Substack.
Thanks for explaining. I'm one of the people who is on Substack because you are, but I'm reaching the jump off point for Substack. I understand that your email list is portable, so I hope that if I jump before you do that our connection isn't severed for very long.
My calculus is this: It's a Nazi bar now, because of the bar owner. That's not going to change. I have to vote with my small beer.
What's with all the profanity and ad hominems on the part of the nominal good guys here in this debate! I'm reading a lot of "shit" language tossed around. Maybe, just maybe, that vehemence can be vented in a different manner?? Shock value grabs attention, true, but there is such a thing as stimulus extinction and all the cursing gets old, tired and banal pretty fast. A good cause, so why self-marginalize? Think!
The thing about "defeat nazi ideas in the marketplace of ideas" always leaves out is that the whole fucking world put nazi ideas on trial and found them abhorrent enough to put most of the nazis to death. I'm pretty sure we soundly defeated nazi ideas last time they were given a marketplace.
Erin Butler makes one of the more cogent remarks here, I believe, in her comment.
No matter how much sunlight bad ideas receive in the past they resurface and must be disinfected once again. Because people, generally, do not learn from the past. Unfortunately, this lends credence to McKenzie’s argument, however. Still, it is a valid point.
My argument throughout, no matter how much in opposition I am to the “Nazis” and the owners’ stake in this, has been to try not to make rash assumptions about the owners’ “political bias” as some have. And this leads me to want to stay and “fight the good fight.”
I’m a human of some years and I would offer that, first, no one is perfect (perhaps Nazis count among the most of imperfect humans…) and that each of us comes to every moment with certain “baggage.” Of a general sort. Some of us are “trained” to be more or less cynical. Some believe that people, generally speaking, are inherently either good or evil, and proceed to pass judgment from there. But at some point we have to remember that we know nothing of what takes place in the life or mind of another. These are all nothing but assumptions. Except, perhaps, when dealing with swine like Nazis who make their feelings far too obvious.
Because some believe in the inherent goodness of people, they genuinely believe that sunlight will disinfect bad ideas, even as they continue to resurface. If you are more cynical you will reject this thought.
Though it is possible to prevaricate upon the subject as well. One never knows.
Mr. Moxon makes one crucial point, however, that leads me to confirm my judgment to stay, and validates my own opinion about staying: that Nazis and their co-conspirators want nothing more than to chase people away from where they chose to do their filthy business. We who have faced down bullies before know this routine. And we know how to respond.
“which keeps the Nazi voices sequestered to their part of the platform, and this may be true enough for now, I suppose”
Unfortunately it is not. I actually suspect their algorithm is set to drive engagement via pushing offensive content. I base this on the number of times truly heinous bullshit under the guise of the “just asking questions” type of libertarian dudebro edgelord techbro pseudo intellectual styled writer is shoveled at me via “recommendations.”
This despite my subscriptions, paid and otherwise, being 100% *truly liberal* in orientation.
I don’t like the idea of nazi tolerating (at BEST and most GENEROUS interpretation) people getting a thin dime of my money. But I’m also not willing to leave you or the other writers I want to support high and dry.
You said exactly what I was feeling/thinking much better.
It's been a lifelong dream for me to be a writer and when the opportunity landed in my lap earlier this year, I went for it. I found a fucking amazeballs community here that gave me so much support and inspiration and where my biggest cheerleaders when I announced that two of my stories had been accepted for publication next spring. I still have my day job, but I've spent the past few days taking down my work. I'll keep writing and submitting stories but I'm not going anywhere else for now. Like you, I'm furious at Substack for forcing my hand.
Very well written. I'm following you to see if you come up with a new platform, as I'm moving soon as well. My gramma had a saying "If you lie with the dogs, you'll end up with fleas."
I'm leaning towards self-hosting. Although the friction is a bit more than just a migration like "from Substack to XYZ", it also removes any possibility of that target platform sliding down the enshittification slope. With RSS still working, software that can automatically send out emails, and OSS podcasting packages, I'm thinking it's possible to self-host both blog and podcast. Then again, I'm just one small voice, just a gamer who shares their joy every now and again, not my income, so that is possible for me to do.
Most of what I would say has been said above. I’ll be following you wherever you go, because I think what you have to say is really worth reading. I am disappointed in Substack and its principals. I’ll leave and not look back.
Simplistic and aspirational thought: Too bad we can't each of us reading here open a substack on why the Nazis are horrible and write daily about that. What platform isn't going to be going down the X-hole at some point? (I think I am just summarizing here what others have said, I just read the post.)
Nazi ideas reveal intentions, intentions drive actions, actions involve violence. Your slippery slope argument cuts both ways, doesn't it? If Substack grants your wish and boots today's "Nazis," what happens next? We know perfectly well, because we've seen this picture before. The mob will be back tomorrow with a list of "Nazi-adjacent" writers to boot next. By this time next week, the site will read like a UN press release, with only the emptiest pieties allowed.
Or perhaps you'll demand a more activist editorial slant? Antifa taught us all that the slope between ideas and violence may indeed be slippery as you suggest. The "anti-Fascists" turn out to be thuggish brownshirts, indistinguishable from what they nominally oppose. It's a curious moment to label yourself an "anti-Nazi."
WWII taught us how to handle Nazis.
There was an entire war fought with Nazis over their ideas in which an estimated 15-20 million people died and resulted in the military and political defeat of Nazis and their ideas. One would think that should be enough for the head of Substack.
Thanks for explaining. I'm one of the people who is on Substack because you are, but I'm reaching the jump off point for Substack. I understand that your email list is portable, so I hope that if I jump before you do that our connection isn't severed for very long.
My calculus is this: It's a Nazi bar now, because of the bar owner. That's not going to change. I have to vote with my small beer.
What's with all the profanity and ad hominems on the part of the nominal good guys here in this debate! I'm reading a lot of "shit" language tossed around. Maybe, just maybe, that vehemence can be vented in a different manner?? Shock value grabs attention, true, but there is such a thing as stimulus extinction and all the cursing gets old, tired and banal pretty fast. A good cause, so why self-marginalize? Think!
The thing about "defeat nazi ideas in the marketplace of ideas" always leaves out is that the whole fucking world put nazi ideas on trial and found them abhorrent enough to put most of the nazis to death. I'm pretty sure we soundly defeated nazi ideas last time they were given a marketplace.
One substacker I follow (OK Doomer) moved to ghost... you should check her out...
Thank you for allowing open commentary.
Erin Butler makes one of the more cogent remarks here, I believe, in her comment.
No matter how much sunlight bad ideas receive in the past they resurface and must be disinfected once again. Because people, generally, do not learn from the past. Unfortunately, this lends credence to McKenzie’s argument, however. Still, it is a valid point.
My argument throughout, no matter how much in opposition I am to the “Nazis” and the owners’ stake in this, has been to try not to make rash assumptions about the owners’ “political bias” as some have. And this leads me to want to stay and “fight the good fight.”
I’m a human of some years and I would offer that, first, no one is perfect (perhaps Nazis count among the most of imperfect humans…) and that each of us comes to every moment with certain “baggage.” Of a general sort. Some of us are “trained” to be more or less cynical. Some believe that people, generally speaking, are inherently either good or evil, and proceed to pass judgment from there. But at some point we have to remember that we know nothing of what takes place in the life or mind of another. These are all nothing but assumptions. Except, perhaps, when dealing with swine like Nazis who make their feelings far too obvious.
Because some believe in the inherent goodness of people, they genuinely believe that sunlight will disinfect bad ideas, even as they continue to resurface. If you are more cynical you will reject this thought.
Though it is possible to prevaricate upon the subject as well. One never knows.
Mr. Moxon makes one crucial point, however, that leads me to confirm my judgment to stay, and validates my own opinion about staying: that Nazis and their co-conspirators want nothing more than to chase people away from where they chose to do their filthy business. We who have faced down bullies before know this routine. And we know how to respond.
“which keeps the Nazi voices sequestered to their part of the platform, and this may be true enough for now, I suppose”
Unfortunately it is not. I actually suspect their algorithm is set to drive engagement via pushing offensive content. I base this on the number of times truly heinous bullshit under the guise of the “just asking questions” type of libertarian dudebro edgelord techbro pseudo intellectual styled writer is shoveled at me via “recommendations.”
This despite my subscriptions, paid and otherwise, being 100% *truly liberal* in orientation.
I don’t like the idea of nazi tolerating (at BEST and most GENEROUS interpretation) people getting a thin dime of my money. But I’m also not willing to leave you or the other writers I want to support high and dry.
Exactly
You said exactly what I was feeling/thinking much better.
It's been a lifelong dream for me to be a writer and when the opportunity landed in my lap earlier this year, I went for it. I found a fucking amazeballs community here that gave me so much support and inspiration and where my biggest cheerleaders when I announced that two of my stories had been accepted for publication next spring. I still have my day job, but I've spent the past few days taking down my work. I'll keep writing and submitting stories but I'm not going anywhere else for now. Like you, I'm furious at Substack for forcing my hand.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Very well written. I'm following you to see if you come up with a new platform, as I'm moving soon as well. My gramma had a saying "If you lie with the dogs, you'll end up with fleas."
I'm leaning towards self-hosting. Although the friction is a bit more than just a migration like "from Substack to XYZ", it also removes any possibility of that target platform sliding down the enshittification slope. With RSS still working, software that can automatically send out emails, and OSS podcasting packages, I'm thinking it's possible to self-host both blog and podcast. Then again, I'm just one small voice, just a gamer who shares their joy every now and again, not my income, so that is possible for me to do.
Good luck to you in 2024!
To follow up on my prior post:
Different levels of writing for different readers?
* What has a Nazi done for me lately?
* Review the fallacies in Heidigger's intro to Nazism in his unpublished seminars.
Most of what I would say has been said above. I’ll be following you wherever you go, because I think what you have to say is really worth reading. I am disappointed in Substack and its principals. I’ll leave and not look back.
Great essay, thanks.
My understanding is it comes down to their funding model. VC funding means they must make money and cannot afford to be principled.
Simplistic and aspirational thought: Too bad we can't each of us reading here open a substack on why the Nazis are horrible and write daily about that. What platform isn't going to be going down the X-hole at some point? (I think I am just summarizing here what others have said, I just read the post.)
Nazi ideas reveal intentions, intentions drive actions, actions involve violence. Your slippery slope argument cuts both ways, doesn't it? If Substack grants your wish and boots today's "Nazis," what happens next? We know perfectly well, because we've seen this picture before. The mob will be back tomorrow with a list of "Nazi-adjacent" writers to boot next. By this time next week, the site will read like a UN press release, with only the emptiest pieties allowed.
Or perhaps you'll demand a more activist editorial slant? Antifa taught us all that the slope between ideas and violence may indeed be slippery as you suggest. The "anti-Fascists" turn out to be thuggish brownshirts, indistinguishable from what they nominally oppose. It's a curious moment to label yourself an "anti-Nazi."