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Elaine the Mean Old Feminist's avatar

The same thing is happening in the abortion debate these days. I'm supposed to seriously ponder the opinion of people who want to shitcan other people's bodily autonomy, usually because their religion says abortion is murder. Fuck that. I've been an abortion rights activist for more than 35 years and my goal these days is to make womb sniffers' lives miserable scream in their faces on the sidewalk at clinics where they come to pester patients; find their churches and picket them on Sundays. If they don't like being treated the way they treat patients they can fuck off and die. They're always telling me I'm angry. Well fuck yeah. I was angry about this issue in 1985 and I'm angry now.

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Ian Douglas Rushlau's avatar

"Good faith in debate requires a positive assumption of awareness, intention, and sincerity on the part of another, yet some arguments are so untethered to reality that to assume good faith in the matter of intention means assuming profound ignorance, but to assume awareness means assuming insincerity and bad intent...

What’s wanted here isn’t a civil discourse or an exchange of ideas.

What’s wanted is to agree that reality is not what it actually is, but what the person you’re dealing with says it is, which means you agree that they are the ones who get to set the terms of reality for everyone else."

Can't a person, an especially vile and especially deranged person, not partake both of detachment from empirical reality and malign purposes?

As I observed elsewhere, just because someone is a lying dirtbag doesn't mean they aren't also a true disciple of fascism, with all that entails. Actually, what it entails, when one is a true disciple of fascism, is both malign purposes, and empirical detachment from reality.

Let's consider a recent example.

Suppose a former history teacher at a small private Christian school moves on to become governor, and appoints some no kidding fascists to draft preferred renditions of American history for the textbooks of secondary students across the state. These preferred renditions of American history want impressionable young minds informed that Africans held in bondage were better off in specific ways from being held in bondage.

Is there sincerity in this effort? I say yes, because the former history teacher and the no kidding fascists he pals around with really believe that people of African decent should be grateful for the blessings conferred on them by the magnanimous slave owners. Because to fascists, people of African descent are incapable of functioning independently in the world, can only become civilized through the machinations of the slave owners.

The bad faith is woven in, however, because the no kidding fascists are aware that full-throated embrace of fascism, including the wearing of matching brown shirts and proud display of the Sonnenrad is not yet completely ready for prime time, general public display. Oh, you can knowingly display the Sonnenrad, but then fire the straight-up Nazi who crafted the message that the former history teacher approved, only to act like it was an 'Oopsie!' moment.

Like Ann Coulter flashing a coy sieg heil on national television, or CPAC going with the Othala rune design for its main stage, we're told that it's us triggered libs who are simply seeing things, because who would indulge in Nazi posturing so brazenly?

Gaslighting is always bad faith, but also currency of a person who just knows whatever they say and do is right.

"in the centrist’s Dipshit Paradox, they ask us to ignore the harm"

Exactly.

Some thoughts in word form of mine from a bit over seven years ago-

"Think respectful dialogue works with conservatives, and will bring Trump voters around? Think again."(March 21, 2017)

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/3/21/1645715/-Think-respectful-dialogue-works-with-conservatives-and-will-bring-Trump-voters-around-Think-again

"We are told by wise elders and pundits of the left and right that a lack of civility has overtaken politics in this country, and that it is an affliction that has infected the entire political spectrum— progressives no less than conservatives...

But what if the ‘civility has broken down across the political spectrum’ trope wasn’t actually true?

What if the ‘both sides do it’ trope is a false equivalency, much as the much discussed ‘crisis of polarization’ turns out to be ‘not a thing’, as my kids might say, but simply a narrative that distorts the reality— the right wing has become increasingly extreme, but not the left...

It turns out, when someone does careful research on political messaging, we find that there is not a even distribution of incivility between the political right and left — conservatives aren’t merely the more polarized and rigid in their attitudes, they actually prefer to hear speakers who show disrespect...

How do we know it’s conservatives that prefer displays of disrespect? The appeal of disrespect towards perceived opponents lies in its connotation of strength, and it’s a feature of the authoritarian personality, which is a particular attribute of conservatives...

I’ve argued repeatedly in diaries that Trump’s campaign was explicitly fascist in nature, and Trump voters (90% reliable GOP voters) are proto-fascists, receptive to the message of a fascists, and ready to be recruited (as the election demonstrated). Richard Seymour makes it clear why discourse fails with fascists and proto-fascists:

//The problem is, in part, that operating liberal political theories about 'speech' -- the theories that, whether we 'believe' them are not, tend to be the ones that predominantly guide people's actions and responses -- are centuries behind the state of knowledge about how language works. It is still assumed that language is basically a neutral conduit, transferring meaning from one to the other, rather than something which is done to you. Meaning itself is treated as something contained in the language, which we may decide to unpack and digest, rather than as a form of intending, something which acts on us, by means of the very materiality of language and what it activates in us. If language does things to us, if we find that disagreeing is somehow just not adequate as a response, if it makes us want to throw a punch, or a brick, it must be because we're triggered snowflakes who can't deal with the argument.//

//The advantage that fascists have on this terrain is that they do not behave as though they are having a conversation. They are aware that they are throwing verbal bricks, and that in good time, in circumstances of their choosing, they'll throw literal bricks or bullets. In the meantime, they are taking advantage of the protocols of mainstream media communication to amplify their voice without in any serious way engaging with their opponents.//

Letting a conservative talk at you will not make them feel heard, and so make them more receptive to hearing progressive messages. They are not trying to convince us, they are trying to beat us to the ground.

If we assume they share a good faith interest in making the country better for everyone, we will be rewarded only with disdain, and the progressive accomplishments of the past century (imperfect and incomplete as they are), will be lost."

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